Mihail Ivanov: The conflict in the Movement for Rights and Freedoms between Peevski and Dogan is part of the ongoing destabilization of Bulgaria

Genka Shikerova, Free Europe, 9 July 2024

The former adviser to President Zhelyu Zhelev on ethnic and religious issues is a guest on the Studio Bulgaria programme of the Bulgarian section of Free Europe, hosted by Genka Shikerova, to explain what is happening in the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, where one of the two co-chairmen, the influential businessman and politician Delyan Peevski, has come into conflict with the party’s honorary chairman, Ahmed Dogan. Mihail Ivanov explained that the party from its very beginning was a unity of two elements – the political representation of Bulgarians, Turks, Pomaks and Roma, and Bulgarian economic (oligarchic) interests. The tension between these two elements – ethnic and economic – is one possible explanation for what is happening in the party now.

Genka Shikerova: Hello, you are with Free Europe’s Studio Bulgaria. I’m Genka Shikerova.

Last week the Movement for Rights and Freedoms split. What’s next? There is tension between honorary chairman Ahmet Dogan and one of the party’s chairmen, Delyan Peevski. There are two factions in the party. One is around Dogan, who called himself the authentic Movement for Rights and Freedoms, and the other around Peevski, sanctioned for corruption by the United States and Britain. From the camp of Dogan came out with a circulation that there is no turning back. In a statement, Peevski said there was no Dogan-Peevski issue, while MP Hamid Hamid said the Peevski-Dogan relationship was like father-son.

My next guest is a researcher of the so-called revival process during communism (the forced renaming of the Bulgarian citizens with Muslim names during the 80s – note of the translator). He was an adviser to President Zhelyu Zhelev on ethnic and religious issues. He is one of the few people in our country who know how the Movement for Rights and Freedoms and Ahmed Dogan were created.

My guest is Associate Professor Mikhail Ivanov. Hello!

Good day!

I would like to start with a headline from an analysis by our colleague Nikolay Lavchiev, which is like a question to you. They fought for rights, now they choose Peevski from the Magnitsky list. Where was and where did the Movement for Rights and Freedoms reach?

This is Nikolay’s title and the question to you.

And what is the question? Where did the Movement for Rights and Freedoms go?

Where did the Movement for Rights and Freedoms go?

It is not very accurate, that title. The vast majority of the people who fought for rights, of those who were the most democratic-minded, were expelled during the events of 1989. Then the May events started with somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 people being thrown out. That was the most active part. These were people who were really working for a democratic reconstruction of Bulgaria, and they were saying that the problems of their community will be solved when the problems of Bulgaria are solved. All these people are gone.

They are now in Turkey or some other places in the world. Of course, there was one democratic part left, which was also fighting for freedom, which was in the prisons. But very quickly after the establishment of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, most of these people who were in prisons were also removed.

Of those who were at the very first conference, the founding conference of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, which I think was held in March 1990, of those who founded the Movement for Rights and Freedoms at that conference, of those who founded the Movement for Rights and Freedoms before that in Varna and in Kardzhali on 4 and 8 January 1990, the great majority were removed.

So, of course, today’s Movement for Rights and Freedoms is different from the one that was inherited from the struggle against the communist regime.

How did Ahmed Dogan emerge? Could you recall that part of the story?

Ahmed Dogan appeared somewhat unexpectedly for everyone. In fact, we knew him as someone who had been in prison and who had fought for the rights of the Turks, who was one of the leaders of a powerful organisation. We gradually understood that.

I specifically met the woman from whom he had a child. They were living together as husband and wife. Her name was Tanya Zhelyazkova. And even under her influence, motivated by conversations with her, I proposed to set up a Committee for National Reconciliation. That was in December 1989. I proposed it at a meeting of the Publicity Club on December 1, 1989. Many people joined this committee.

We are talking here about people like Blaga Dimitrova, like Doncho Papazov, like Hristo Ganev and Binka Zhelyazkova. They are a large part of the Bulgarian intelligentsia – filmmakers, artists, academician Rumen Tsanev, Radoy Ralin.

All these people came into the Committee. There were many physicists, I am a physicist actually. And when we had to choose a leadership, I’ll never forget, when before that meeting… Dogan had just been released from prison. And I, in a telephone conversation, immediately Tanya connected us, I offered him to come into the leadership. He refused.

At the meeting itself, Kin Stoyanov insisted. Dogan again repeated the demand, that Dogan should be one of us, should be in the leadership. He again refused. He said that his plans were different, that he needed time to trust us, so to speak.

And he went another way. Our formula was “Turks, Bulgarians, all minority people together”. The Jews were very active, I can tell you. The future leaders of Shalomi, of Bnei Brit, of the Carmel Lodge, were also among us. Eddie Schwartz and Freddie Crispin. Pomaks, gypsies. Manush Romanov.

The formula was – all ethnic groups together. But he decided to go the other way and he created, initially, even the Movement for Rights and Freedoms was called, he had called it the Movement for Rights and Freedoms of Turks and Muslims in Bulgaria. We had to tell him not to do it, to persuade him, but so, you know, so the idea was that only Muslims should be involved, because the lesser ones had to come in as well. So gradually it developed…

I was trying to cooperate with him, together with Antonina Zhelyazkova. Then there were a lot of things, a very wide field for cooperation and for the restoration of language rights, name rights, social rights, very heavy as a result of this big migration. But he went on alone, and very quickly he somehow with intermediaries, of course, got in touch with the representatives of the emerging big Bulgarian capital. We are talking, first of all, about Multigroup.

And back in the 1990s, during the rallies for the Great National Assembly, Iliya Pavlov appeared at the presidiums, on the stands, at the rallies and meetings of the Movement for Rights and Freedom. Iliya Pavlov, who is… He became the head of that corporation there, Multigroup. Other Multigroup activists at various conferences conveyed greetings on behalf of MG. That is, between the Movement for Rights and Freedom that Ahmed Dogan and these not very clear-oriented business intermediaries created very close ties. So gradually money entered the Movement for Rights and Freedom. And step by step, the Movement for Rights and Freedom began to deviate from its initial tasks that it had set itself. Those tasks were largely solved. They were related to the restoration of the rights of Muslims in Bulgaria.

But it abandoned the maintenance of the ethno-cultural identity of minorities. In general, these isolated themselves from all this and oriented themselves under the leadership of Ahmed Dogan towards a place on the political scene, towards participation in governments and very active participation in economic life. If you walk along the boulevard “Alexander Stamboliyski” and see where the building of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms headquarters is – on the corner of the boulevard “Stamboliyski” and “Samuil” Street, the first lower building directly from the headquarters on “Samuil” is the building they call the “business centre”. That’s where the business is done. It is next to the party headquarters.

By the time of Ivan Kostov, by the time of the second SDS government, this centre had already established itself as a representative of the symbiosis between politics and big capital. That is, of what we call oligarchy.

This is how things started. From there followed the connection of Dogan through Iliya Pavlov, through Nikolay Valkanov, who was the vice-president of Multigroup, with the young, quite fledgling, adolescent pale Delyan Peevski.

This is already the second phase. This was at the beginning of the 20th century, when Delyan Peevski, he was at the beginning in the National Movement Simeon II (the party, which the former Bulgarian king established in order to become prime minister as a regular citizen – note of the editor), in the Youth Organisation, held the appointed positions. There was a very important stage. There was a big struggle between Dogan and Saxe-Coburggotski during their joint government. This was the government between 2001 and 2005. Dogan insisted, if you remember at the time, that Luciano be a minister. 

He was minister of sport, there was a problem with his degree, he didn’t have a university degree in May, but he became a minister anyway.

Very well, that’s what I have to say. Dogan wanted Luciano to be a minister. That was going to deal with some business related to cakes.

Dogan wanted Luciano to be a minister. Saxe-Coburggotsky, along with several ministers around him, wouldn’t give a word of mention because he didn’t have a degree. In the end, Dogan had his way, Luciano became minister against all odds.

Yes, but in this ministry, which came out of the hat of a minister without a portfolio, who was Nejdet Molov. It was a committee under his umbrella, which suddenly got independence. And already inside the independent ministry, the director, the head or chairwoman, or how to say, of the sports totalisator Irena Krasteva actively joined in the activities. Gradually it turned out that she was very rich, if you remember.

I remember her from the period at the sports totalisator, but the previous period, if it was related to getting rich, I do not know.

I am not talking about the previous period, I am talking about this particular period of the sports lotto. It accumulated large assets. I don’t say in what way and I don’t want to comment, but then those transferred a lot of assets to her son.

Newspapers were bought with loans from the CCB. The Bulgarian Media Group was created. And that’s how the legalization went through

This is the beginning. From there things started.

On what line did the rapprochement of Dogan with “Multigroup” go?

From the very beginning?

Yes.

Some say that Dogan was almost ready to play such a role. I personally think that yes in 89, however, very serious attention was paid to him.

There was an interview with the Soviet Ambassador Sharapov, if you remember. When they asked him, did you meet with the opposition before the change, before the overthrow of Todor Zhivkov? He said, “Yes, I have met them.”

Could you name names? He said, “I have met with Zhelyu Zhelev, with Ahmed Dogan.” And if we can imagine how he met Zhelyu Zhelev. We wonder how he met Ahmed Dogan, who was in prison at the time. So it is obvious that he was paid attention to. And he was being facilitated so that he could make all these contacts and develop this activity.

He had been launched to better positions even before the changes. But at the end, in ’89 I would say. Maybe from the beginning, from just before, from ’88.

After that, after that, people who had a very important role in the state, like Lyuben Gotsev, for example, were like chilis playing the role of intermediaries to link the Multigroup and the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. And Ahmed Dugan personally. Keep in mind that at that time, Multigroup was offering its services everywhere.

We are for democracy, we have money, we will give money to get things done. They were ready everywhere to cooperate with money.

That is, you talk about Dogan and about “Multigroup” as two products of state security, which were simply put together by state security.

From State Security. I’m talking about the collection of these two lines. The economic one, the oligarchic one, the big capital created by the communist regime. And Dogan, who on the other hand was led to play the role of our boy in all that was going to happen. You said it well.

Well, I ask you this also in terms of today’s context. Because there is a kind of cult to the image of Dogan among the supporters of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. He is also an honorary president.

At the moment, declarations in support of the honorary chairman are also pouring in. I have tried to talk to people in places outside Sofia, supporters of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. I have asked them for what reason does he, as a proven representative of State Security, of the secret services, which are at the heart of the repression against you, continue to have the same halo?

I will be rougher. When I have spoken to my friends in the Rhodopes – Pomaks, Turks, especially the Pomaks among my friends who have been very direct, they say, “We know what he is. We know it very well. But why, when you dislike it so much and when you dislike others, why don’t these people of yours come to us and give us a hand? Why don’t they come to us? Why don’t they reach out to us?”

It was about the Union of Democratic Forces from the very beginning. Now, as of today, it is about “We Continue the Change” and “Democratic Bulgaria”.

These other parties have created the vacuum. When the Movement for Rights and Freedoms appeared, they breathed a sigh of relief because part of their electorate was nationalist, especially that of the Union of Democratic Forces. And it began to look the other way at the great care that the Union of Democratic Forces took in the beginning to protect the Turks and Muslims in Bulgaria. And now, when the Movement for Rights and Freedoms appeared, these people said – the Turks are their business. Suddenly this space, this part of our society, was parceled out.

This is a very important aspect of things. I personally have been fine trying since the protests. I was critical of the protests, maybe you know. I think I’ve now been proved right.

But anyway, after the protests, I tried to mediate both in Democratic Bulgaria and in We Continue the Change, to connect Turkish and Pomak people. They themselves expressed a desire. They said – “Please connect us, give us a connection, give us phone numbers”. I call my best friend, I ask him, do you give your phone? “Give it.” But nothing was happening. Nothing was happening.

All these people were depersonalised and could not find their place in this pretended democracy. I say ga with great pain, because I had great sympathy for Yes Bulgaria and struggled to somehow contribute to its development. Thus, in isolation from everyone else, these people, this large part of our society, sought their political representation. And they saw it in the face of that Movement for Rights and Freedoms, which Ahmed Dogan created.

Now there is something else, which already goes to today and to the issue of the conflict between Dogan and Peevski. Dogan established an authoritarian regime inside the party, inside the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. This is an authoritarian party. He is the beginning, he is the top. He is, as you say, deified. But he, perhaps following the model of the BCP, created and maintained bodies that were collective. There was a Central Operations Bureau, there was a Central Council. The Central Operations Bureau used to meet every week, every Tuesday or Wednesday. The Central Council also convened regularly. There was a collectivism. Those people who were in the Movement for Rights and Freedoms superstructure were not directly commanded in their direct activities by Dogan. Even some of them complained to me – “I’m going to ask him how to act, how not to act. He says, you do it yourself, don’t bother me. That’s your business, you sort it out.” And so he did, really. Yes, he was giving them a perimeter of action.

These days, I realized that this approach actually contributed to having a collective body. And it has contributed to making these active supporters of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms feel like a community. In spite of all this talk about money, corruption and so on, about “State Security”.

They are a community. Under Dogan they were a community. You feel you belong to one group, connected to others.

This immediately distinguishes him from Peevski.

I just want to bring you back before we go on and talk about the present, because we talked about the tangent in the face of state security that brings Ahmed Dogan and Multigroup closer. The entry of Delyan Peevski on what line it happened. Because he enters. We see him along the Multigroup. He went through a youth National Movement Simeon II, but anyway he is turning to the Movement for Rights and Freedoms…

Exactly how he got into the leadership of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, it’s hard for me to tell you, because I was a bit cut off from active work at the time. I devoted myself more to teaching and digging in the archives. But suddenly I was even a little startled when I was told by people from the Movement for Rights and Freedoms that our party was actually run by two people.

Whatever they say goes. This was somewhere around… Maybe, I’m going to lie, but maybe around 2010. Suddenly it turned out that he was one of them… They are together, they decide everything together. If one of them says no, things don’t happen.

But again I can explain this connection, precisely with Ahmed Dogan’s interests in this economic activity, the use of political mechanisms, party mechanisms, the use of a political entity in the use of economic activity. That’s how I explain it.

My question had to do with whether the common denominator could be State Security among all of this.

Dogan was already independent. Sometimes I am asked who stands for Dogan or who stands for Peevski. I think the right question is the question that refers to the network. Who is Dogan with and who is Peevski with. What network is Dogan in and what network is Peevski in.

The network are informally connected people. Both Dogan and Peevski belonged together in the network that clearly emerged after the murder of Ilia Pavlov in 2003.

What happened after “Multigroup”, all the vice-presidents – Nikolay Valkanov, Dimitar Ivanov, Stoyan Denchev. They were all connected in one.

Stoyan Denchev and Dimitar Ivanov made this institute that we all call librarian. They are all in one network. And now Stoyan Denchev has made a statement that Dogan approached him. After many years of not hearing from each other. But Peevski was also part of this network. They were both at the beginning of this network.

Not so much state security connects them, in my opinion.

But rather business.

The State Security-born business. This is… Can I go back a little bit?

Yeah.

We all think… No, it’s widespread that the change in Bulgaria, the internal forces that brought about the change in Bulgaria were the dissidents, the people who were for democracy. I have a slightly different opinion.

I have even written articles about it. At the end of his rule, Todor Zhivkov created capitalism and exported it abroad. So it was mainly black capitalism. With black coffers. With the money of the state that Todor Zhivkov operated with.

Overseas companies were created. Representations of many countries in the world were created. This activity unfolded.

It was connected with scientific and technical intelligence, which was stealing prescriptions for medicines, or in other words biotechnology, or patents for making computers, or in other words information technology. All of that was piling up. A lot of money came in.

There was gun smuggling. And in this way, outside of Bulgaria, large even money masses accumulated. Very active economic activity. But, as I say, rather directed towards black markets. However, these people, Todor Zhivkov, managed them to some extent and controlled them.

From one point on, they wished to reject that control. The Communist Party was in their way, the hat was in their way. They didn’t like that somebody was asking them for an account – what they had done, how much they were going to give back of what they had been given. That was a handicap for them. And even I, following the example of the classical Marxists and Leninists, say that the shirt of socialism turned out to be very tight for this black capitalism.

It were the main force of change. You see what happened next. After the changes, there were many state economic associations that were welded under the umbrella of the Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations. For example, the state economic association Rud Metal. State Economic Association “Chemimport”, which was responsible for the import and export of chemical products. These are the State Economic Associations, these are the ones who were taking what was available in Bulgaria and exporting it abroad.

They were also foreign-oriented. They also imported the necessary raw materials. This is, in essence, the mechanism of the country’s economy. At one point Andrei Lukanov announced that he was closing the Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations. Fellow economists here can better tell this story. It was suddenly closed down. And these state economic associations were left without regulation. Even their funding was hampered. I had relatives who worked, for example, in this Rud Metal. It was import and export related to ores and metals.

Those ceased to be funded. Then suddenly Multigroup appeared on this empty ground and said – we will do import and export, we will produce metals and import ores. And the people, the team from Rud Metal, very well trained specialists moved to Multigroup.

That’s one mechanism of how ownership transformation happened. And this whole transformation of ownership, certain, not the whole state security, but certain very highly influential circles of state security were actively involved in this process, and state security agents from the highest level, middle party nomenklatura were brought in to start moving things along. All of this was a parallel activity to which the newly emerging democratic opposition was aloof.

They didn’t know and we didn’t know what it was about. This is very important. Even when we wanted to go deeper into the archives of the “State Security” in the Ministry of the Interior, they wouldn’t give it to us, they mocked us, they received us with a smile. They wanted the relevant documents, they wanted regulation, they wanted law, and that law dragged on. I can say this as the genesis of our capital.

Our capital was born in sin. It is very difficult not to be so. These structures I am talking to you about are also mafia-like in nature. I do not go into details and do not wish to speak.

Dimitar Ludzhev, for example, at the time, wanted to clarify all the activity around, outside, the overseas companies and other people. There were doctrinaires who thought, well, if we want to develop a process of initial capital accumulation, we should leave them a little bit unchecked. Not everything can be in the law, in accord with the law. That’s the way the process went. You may remember that in the 1990s it was a time of mafia warfare on the streets of Sofia. Very often, almost every other day, someone was killed in the streets.

This was the period of the formation of the groupings.

The groupings.

In the conditions of the Yugo-embargo.

Yes, the yugo-embargo contributed a lot to the black business, because during his time columns of tanks went through Macedonia to Yugoslavia.

At what point did the Movement for Rights and Freedoms go from being a party that set out with a certain ideology to defend the rights of minorities to becoming a business corporation? Because Dogan talked about a corporation last year, and it was something that was going to happen, but he stopped it by suggesting that Delyan Peevski should be chairman…

He made that statement in January. It was his address to the Movement for Rights and Freedoms conference where he, by the way, for this address, proposed the two of them as chairmen. Yes, he said it. So, you ask for a moment.

There is no precise moment. I’ve been leading the conversation there all along that this is a process and that these elements in the work of the rights and freedoms movement that are about protecting the identity of reclaiming rights and so on have been gradually abandoned. I give an example in brackets.

In 1992, when Turkish language learning was allowed, there were 110 000 students learning Turkish. Now they are no more than 7 000. The Movement for Rights and Freedoms was in government, in government, many times during this period. It was not doing what was necessary to preserve this identity. It deviated and this deviation is a process. It developed gradually, and gradually the corporate entered, the oligarchic entered… In any case, at the beginning of the twentieth century, during the government of Simeon Saxe-Coburggotsky, this symbiosis was already a fact.

Before that, you know that there was a very sharp conflict between Ivan Kostov and Ahmed Dogan. This led to Ivan Kostov saying harsh words that were not understood.

He said, to give the exact quote, that this ethnic model, which is linked to the participation of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms in the government, is a curse for Bulgaria. This model, which is linked to the participation of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms in the governance of Bulgaria, is a curse for the country. It was a perception that he almost said that the DPS itself is a curse.

And then the Turks withdrew from it.

What happened to get to the point where Ahmed Dogan called Delyan Peevski a phenomenon in Bulgarian politics and wished he was the chairman of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms?

Maybe in time we will understand all this. Maybe there are dependencies. But it is certain to what extent Dogan himself is financially dependent. I cannot say about Peevski. Although we all know that he has a rather complicated relationship with thermal power plant Varna.

But as far as the Movement for Rights and Freedom is concerned, the party itself, the organisation itself, Peevski gives a lot of money. Imagine that he is gone. Without Peevski this money will stop. It will hit the organization. This is a very strong dependence.

To whom from whom?

To the whole Movement for Rights and Freedoms from Peevski. Dogan himself from Peevski. This is financial dependence. Peevski gives the money, that’s his power. When elections are made, a lot of money is spent. The subsidies are not enough.

The party has people in the regional governments, it has representatives in the municipal councils. They are actually paid functionaries. Some of the money for them comes from the subsidies, but it is not enough.

I assume that you have discussed with representatives of your acquaintance, supporters of this party, the entry of Bulgarian names into the leadership of the party. Because in the beginning it was Yordan Tsonev and Hristo Bisserov, who are former Union of Democratic Forces cadres. Their names were quite controversial at the time of their joining the Movement for Rights and Freedoms.

Later on we have Delyan Peevski, whose star as the head of the party rose even after he was put on the Magnitsky list for corruption by the US and was separately sanctioned by the UK also for corruption.

Money has no ethnicity. Gradually an overclass formed around the Movement for Rights and Freedoms irrespective of their ethnicity.

But let me go back a little further, because there have been Bulgarians in the leadership of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms from the very beginning. Many of them left. Miroslav Durmov was one of them. Even the author of the first statute with which the Movement for Rights and Freedoms was registered for the Grand National Assembly was Miroslav Durmov. He hoped that he would hopefully toe the line that was aimed at protecting rights.

There are others, many others. I can name names of people, some of them connected with the services, some of them not, but anyway, from the beginning there have been Bulgarians in the movement. Moreover, when it was realised that the Movement for Rights and Freedoms was on the rise, that it had the strength, that it had the resources and it had the positions of power, the exit polls showed that about 100,000 of the 600,000 people who voted for the Movement for Rights and Freedoms were Bulgarians. I think it was 2005. 100 thousand of the voters were ethnic Bulgarians.

It became a clientelist party because there were posts being given away, duties being handed out. Bulgarians have not been a negligible element in the history of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. But you are talking about something else, you are talking about the oligarchic elite. Yordan Tsonev, Kamen Kostadinov, Hristo Bisserov, and other people can be mentioned as belonging to our economic elite, to our business elite.

And how they have always been…

With obscure origins somehow of their funds. But we cannot prove anything.

You talk about the business elite. But they have been in political and public life for I don’t remember how many years in a row, especially Yordan Tsonev.

The connection with the business elite prevailed with these people. There was a time when those who were in the leadership of the Movement of Rights were angry that Dogan was not paying attention and was standing in the business center. And the business center was commanded by three ladies, one of whom was Iskra Mihailova.

In the business center…

The building that is the business center to the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. The building that I told you about a moment ago, that is on ul. “Samuil” next to the headquarters building.

And what business was going on in the business centre?

And that I cannot say. No, I can’t say. Indeed I don’t.

But in each case there were some businesses, some economic activities.

Okay, and how are these people received by authentic supporters of the Rights and Freedoms Movement?

I told you… They said, “We know these things. We know this. But it doesn’t get better than this. At least it’s ours. Nobody else is paying attention to us.”

By the way, the thing about attention, I hear it too. The people are right, because the Movement for Rights and Freedoms may have remained the only party whose representatives, especially during elections, go around meeting people. If anything, they ask them – “How are you? Are you well? What are you doing?”

It is not just this attention. For example, if one of the children of “Yes, Bulgaria” had said even before their protest or at the beginning of their protest in Rosenets – for example, Hristo Ivanov and Ivaylo Mirchev, if they had said so, not to say, come on, it’s very emotional – “Brothers, we are fellow citizens. We have common interests, we are victims together. We suffer from the same people, the same forces. Let us be together.” Have you ever heard that? Ever heard Hristo Ivanov say it?

He gives the example of the finale of his protest in Rosenets, where on the beach the supporters of “Yes, Bulgaria” and those who had gone to guard the sarai sang the anthem together.

That, yes. And what was said there? All of this could have been given a lot more publicity if those words had really been said. It is one thing to sing the Bulgarian hymn – because we are all Bulgarian citizens. It is another to say that our interests are common, our struggle should be the same. To say that we should be together in a political sense.

This is not what Hristo Ivanov says. He has said to me, with all my respect and affection for him, “Mihail, we are ready to work with everybody.” For example, I intercede. Some Turk calls and says, I want to work for Yes, Bulgaria. Others have started to create little nests of Yes Bulgaria supporters and be among themselves. I can point you to such people in different places. There are even municipal councillors elected in this way, purely on their own initiative. But they were not supported by the leadership. That is what this is about. Many parliaments have passed. But apart from the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, in which party were there Turkish MPs or people with Muslim names? Maybe only in GERB. In the We Continue the Change and the Democratic Bulgaria there was not once.

Mustafa Emin appeared as a name…

But as a candidate for MP.

After this active event that was arranged for him, they did not stand behind him to defend him.

Moreover. They criticized him. I think they even punished him.

And then they decided that all those who were punished could not be candidates for deputies. It turns out that this decision, this decree of their leadership only applies to one person. That is Mustafa Emin. He is the only one punished. And after they decided that those who were punished could not be candidates for deputies, they actually cut off his receipt.

I can give many examples.

I don’t want to convince your viewers or you personally, but that’s the way it is. Something more. I myself have mediated to create a link between people, active people from the Turks and the Pomaks, to create a link with the leadership of We Continue the Change. Nothing came out. I had some hopes in the beginning that something small happened. And they asked me themselves.

So I don’t find words to justify it. When we look at the whole picture, we should not look for the cause only within the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, but we should also see where, in what political environment the whole Muslim minority in Bulgaria is.

That is, they must either be outside or they must be inside the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, where they can only have some political representation…

Where outside? Outside Bulgaria?

No, no. Outside political life. To be passive.

Yes, minding their own business. Now, there’s something else I have to say here that’s very important. I find it very important. And whether it is, the people will judge. There are processes that don’t seem to get enough attention among this part of our society. Many Turks, many lesser Turks, with a lot of hard work, have studied, have taken up some work, some of them have gone abroad, and generally have got on their feet.

They have not big but decent incomes so that they can have a family. They are doing some trade, some business, some production. Those who are abroad, also with hard work, I know of people in Germany, I know of people who are in America. They send money to their parents. We did two surveys, 2011 and 2016, over five years about the Muslim vote in Bulgaria. Evgenia Ivanova from New Bulgarian University and I did the research. Alpha Research was our partner. They were fantastic to work with.

While in 2011 only 5% of Muslims received money from abroad, this percentage went up in 2016 to 10%. All of this, why am I bringing it up? These funds that went into this group of citizens’ stuff shows that there are processes starting to develop that lead to individual independence.

A man who runs an independent business, he is independent. He is not dependent on the locals chief of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms. Whether he gets a job or whether he doesn’t get a job.

He has a job. And these independent people, largely independent people, began to organize themselves as a kind of opposition. These are the 100,000 people who voted for the DOST party (of the expelled Movement for Rights and Freedoms former leader Lutfi Mestan – ed.).

These 100 thousand votes were not enough to get into parliament, but these are 100 thousand votes. It is best to take from the agencies, for example from Alfa Research, because they operate with this data. How many Muslims are over the age of 18 in Bulgaria? Maybe they are 400,000.

In any case, when we do the math, we will see that somewhere over 100,000 Muslims in Bulgaria do not vote now. In this last election, even though the Movement for Rights and Freedoms had an increase of 5%, even though the other parties lost influence, and the Movement for Rights and Freedoms became the second political force, somewhere over 100,000 voters did not go to vote.

And they haven’t gone to vote for quite a long time now. On the one hand we have a breaking of this pattern where people in small villages are dependent, what some call serfs. A group of independent people is emerging.

I’ll bring you back to the present day and the conflict that is going on. Pevski in addressing the phrase about the “evildoers” in the Movement for Rights and Freedoms”. He outlined this group of people. Do you know who these evildoers are that he is talking about?

Peevski is looking for arguments with this expression about the evildoers. He did the same with his address yesterday. He is looking for arguments both to defend himself and to organise his offensive forces.

I have been thinking and reflecting on this war that has begun. Let’s be fair to some Movement for Rights and Freedoms kids – let’s call it “tension” that was created between Dogan and Peevski. And let’s see who has what forces in this confrontation. Peevski has money. With this money he finances part of the activities of the movement for rights and freedoms. This is the dependence of the movement and personally of Ahmed Dogan on him. Peevski has a party apparatus. He succeeded.

Maybe the fact that Ahmed Dogan broke away from this party process really played a role here. But the Movement for Rights and Freedoms cadres – those who are in the deputy corps, the deputy group, the parliamentary group, who are in the Central Operations Bureau, in the Central Council of the movement, are largely selected by Peevski. And in addition, they are appointed to these places in the regions by him.

Peevski holds this apparatus. This is the second important thing.

The third is that he has great lobbying opportunities. He has very serious connections that he has created over the years with the help of those who created him. And he can ring in Ministries. He has connections with the power structures, with the prosecution, in the services and so on. He has access to information. This is also very important. Here, these are Peevski’s resources. What is there on the other side.

Is it not the same?

No. The majority of the party apparatus is not for Dogan. Here, we are now 30 to 19 and even 28 to 19 MPs (balance of forces between pro-Peevski and pro-Dogan MPs – note of the translator). The majority of MPs are on the side of Peevski.

We are not going to talk to the last man now, but the majority of MPs are on Peevski’s side for now. The Central Operations Bureau, the deputy chairmen, most of them support Peevski. If a Central Council is convened, I cannot say for sure, but the likelihood that Peevski’s line will be confirmed at this Central Council is very high

So Peevski has taken the party?

This is where I think he has not taken the party. And one more thing.

The party is all of these activists, not the most ordinary voters, but also those who consider themselves active members. There are many more supporters of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms than there are of these governing bodies. They feel like a community. They say, we are the Movement for Rights and Freedomsers, we are a community. Dogan never touched that thing anymore. He reinforced the feeling of the supporters of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms that they are a community. 

But Peevski does not say, you are a community. Peevski is pursuing a corporation policy. He says – “I am the boss, I do what I say, you have to obey”. He plays the role of the master, he plays the role of the boss. Since January, Pevski has not bothered to convene the central operations bureau once, or has convened it at most once or twice. He has not convened the Central Council. He is the sole leader. That is the difference between him and Dogan.

Dogan reigns supreme down in the general body of supporters. That’s where his strength is at the moment. He doesn’t have as much money, he doesn’t have the apparatus or he doesn’t have the upper hand in the apparatus. He has connections in various places, but Pevski is much more active. Still, Dogan has broken away from the party. But he has the community. The community of supporters of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms.

Will that help him win? One cannot say. The representatives of Peevski are very strong, but something else can be said. If Peevski wins, many of those who feel like a community in the Movement for Rights and Freedoms will leave. And the Movement for Rights and Freedoms will decrease in composition. There will be a serious outflow from the Movement for Rights and Freedoms..

If Dogan wins, the community will remain and there will not be such a strong outflow. Do you understand me? That’s what this is about.

Peevski, as I see it, understands these things well. He is aware of this and he is starting to look for some enemies. The enemies are evildoers.

Let’s see who these evildoers are. Some of them may be controversial.

I know very well, for example, Feliz Hyusmenova. She was my boss, she was my minister. I haven’t had the most wonderful relationship with Feliz, but does he think that Feliz Hyusmenova is a evildoer?

I was listening to Hamid Hamid on the BBC. There was no such allegation about her…

No, wait. Okay, but she was suspended and she was, by the way…

She left on her own.

And why?

To take the blame for the low scores. So they say. She says so, doesn’t she? That’s the reason, not the cause. Peevski’s media started spewing all sorts of snakes and lizards against her.

There was an attack through the Varna chairman.

And on top of that, she was accused of being involved with the Varna stuff.

Yes. Ceyhan Ibryamov, why did they suspend him? Is he a derebey?

I’ve known this guy since he was young. Korman was the chairman of the Youth Movement for Rights and Freedoms. Jeyhan was the deputy chairman. I have not seen him in the role of derebey. If Peevski claims it, let him prove it. These evildoers should clarify them and say personally who they are. And say why they are called that.

And Ramadan Atalay, who Hamid Hamid says…

Ramadan Atalay was not suspended because he was involved in I don’t know what business. Or had such and such failures in his work. There is no such thing.

He was suspended because… he didn’t have good results in Plovdiv.

They say the regional organization doesn’t want him. Even during his interview, the district organization in Plovdiv was built to say they didn’t want him.

Yes, but it doesn’t want him with the sole accusation that he could not lead the party to victory in the Plovdiv constituency. They are down compared to the previous elections. Plovdiv is a tough job to begin with. I don’t know exactly what goes into this constituency. There are two or three constituencies.

The Movement for Rights and Freedoms has influence in Stolipinovo…

Well, in Stolipinovo I can’t imagine how Ramadan Atalay will be able to go. Rather, I can imagine how the members of the district council can go. Ramadan Atalay said it on the radio yesterday. He said – ‘I was not very active in Plovdiv’. But where he was active, for example in Asenovgrad there is a very large Turkish community, in Krichim too – people there now support him.

Yes, he went from Krichim to Asenovgrad.

But not because there is an accusation against Ramadan Atalay that he is bad, but because he simply could not win the elections. Because he got bad results in the elections. This is the only accusation of the Plovdiv Regional Council.

That is, Peevski should say who is an evildoer and why. This is very funny. It seems like a childish complaint. “Yes, but he is evildoer.”

And how does the overall tone of this letter sound to you? Because it’s like two pages.

Can you give it to me?

Yes, I’ll give it to you if you’ve got quotes, too.

Wait, I hope I can find the quote very quickly.

It’s a rare moment of verbosity in this case, where you’re explaining where there’s conflict, where there’s no conflict. Peevski says that the Dogan-Peevski issue does not exist and that there is no conflict between him and Ahmed Dogan. At the same time, the authentic Movement for Rights and Freedoms of Dogan tells us that there is no going back.

Ah, here’s the quote. Thank you, sorry. It sounds a bit vague, if we can interpret it together.

“For the meetings under both presidents, the problem is the lack of initiative. But that can’t be a party-stalling problem.” What does that sentence mean?

Cevdet Chakarov could have called meetings of the Central Operations Bureau because I let both co-chairs go. So it says.

Your interpretation is that maybe that’s what it says. One when he decides to convene and the other when he decides to convene. You and I are co-chairs and you decide to convene on Monday, I decide on Tuesday.

That’s the way it comes out, I don’t know now.

I think the resolve of that wise sentence is that for not convening and for the co-chairs to work as a team and sign together, what is he saying? That can’t be a party-stretching issue. In fact, the main criticism of him, one of the main criticisms of him, which is said in the code name “let’s get back to normality”, is to get back to getting the collective bodies to work normally.

There cannot be a meeting of the central operational bureau for more than half a year. How does this work?

By the way, when the parliamentary group puts them together, how many times have we heard that a decision has been taken by a vote of the parliamentary group. I personally only heard once when they removed Ramadan Atalay, and apart from that, they removed Aysel Rufad, they removed Ceyhan Ibryam. Was there a vote? Was there no vote?

These things are not irrelevant. What is not irrelevant is that if I want to do something as Co-Chair, I have to tell the other Co-Chair and when we have to send a letter, we both have to sign it. These are not formalities.

It is not a job-crushing problem for him. For him it is irrelevant. That betrays his thinking.

This thinking is not of a man who runs a party, but who runs a corporation. “I’m the sole boss and it’s not a problem that I don’t get the board together. Since the money is with me, the money is mine.”

There is no going back on the part of the so-called authentic Movement for Rights and Freedoms. How do you take it? Is it possible to get to the exclusion of Peevski and is there even a mechanism for such?

I await with interest the announcement that Dogan will make a public speech. In general, the rush on both sides is very complicated. Not so much that there’s a fight over whether to take a second term, but more importantly the election. The election is coming. There is hardly anyone who doubts that there will be an election in the fall. And if the Movement for Rights and Freedoms remains as it is, it will lose the elections. There will be an exodus from it. That’s not going to sit well with a large portion of the electorate and at least a noticeable portion of the electorate. Furthermore, there is no question that the integrity of the party is important to both sides.

If that party falls apart, then what are we left with? If you break a vase, there was a play by Valery Petrov – the vase shatters, everyone gasps – and one person says “Nothing, nothing, these pieces are solid”. If the fact that the pieces are strong from the breaking of the vase comforts no one. This too must be borne in mind. And for that matter how will the counter-pains go on? Perhaps it will come to a temporary truce. Maybe it will come down to looking to a broader base, the community base, to sort things out, to solve the problem. But this is not a one-off clash. The process of confrontation will continue. Perhaps with ebbs and flows.

I can’t say a definitive outcome. But if Peevski finally establishes himself as the sole master and sole manager of the party and sends Dogan “to a well-deserved rest”, as they used to say in the days of the socialist regime – i.e. all honours to him, all the praises to him, but he is there to look after his old age… if that happens, then a large part of the Movement for Rights and Freedoms community will leave Peevski’s party. So in any case there are many risks.

Bulgaria does not need this. As we can see, we cannot have a normal government for several years now. Destabilisation is brewing along all lines. For the Movement for Rights and Freedoms to destabilise right now, there is no alternative. I have always been a fan of having an alternative to the Movement for Rights and Freedoms, to have someone else for the voters, Turks and Pomaks to vote for. But there isn’t. There just isn’t. And then there better be a stable Movement for Rights and Freedoms, at least to get us out of this hole.

Good. Thank you very much for this analysis. You subscribe to our YouTube channel, to YouTube Music, to Spotify if you’d rather just listen to us, and follow the news on the Free Europe website.

Photo: Ahmed Dogan and Delyan Peevski (source: Mediapool)

Copyright (c) 2018. RFE/RL, Inc. Republished with permission of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, 1201 Connecticut Ave NW, Ste 400, Washington DC 20036.

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